This is a *****SPECIAL EDITION***** ACTIVEenergy.net Newsletter from Bob Buford


A Conversation: Rick Warren and Peter Drucker

I have said that the theme and method of these e-mails will be to continue the “Let’s do lunch” format I used in Finishing Well -- letting you, the reader, sit in on conversations with some great people as they make the most of their Life II changes and opportunities.

This time, I’m going to sit silently with you to listen in on a remarkable conversation between two giants. This conversation took place on January 22, 2003 between Rick Warren and Peter Drucker at Peter’s home in Claremont, California. Rick is asking for Peter’s wisdom about issues of growth and succession. Rick’s church, Saddleback (www.saddleback.com), had grown by more than 3,000 people in just 40 days using a strategy called “40 days of purpose.”

Fortunately, Rick taped and transcribed the conversation. Both men have given me permission to share this remarkable moment in time via ACTIVEenergy.net. You will find it useful in the context of any situation of organizational growth and the leadership of change. It is also a superb example of mentoring.

Rick reminded me that the numbers have changed in two years. Have they ever! His Purpose Driven Life and Purpose Driven Church books have now sold more than 23 million copies. Rick’s 12 Easter services drew 45,000 attendees. I’m using the “What is God Doing Now” section this time to show you the Purpose Driven Covenant as an example of Rick’s next initiative and its spirit. Since their conversation covers several topics and since I want to show what God is doing now through Rick, this newsletter is longer than usual. Stick with it. It’s worth it.

At this time, Peter was 93 and Rick was 49. Here’s what they said:

Peter: Rick, you are moving from just being a church to being… I hate to say the word… to being a denomination. How old are you now?
 

Rick: I'm 49.

Peter: You’re still young yet.... but what it your plan for succession?

Rick: That’s one of the issues I came to talk about! I’ve been thinking about it for about five years.

Peter: Generally, successors have not done well. Some of them have been in our program. The ones who do worst are the ones who try to imitate their predecessors and fall flat on their faces. Others have just lost their spark.

Rick: In one sense, I’ve been preparing for succession since the church began because it has always been my goal, from day one, to work myself out of a job. I really enjoy giving the responsibility away and empowering others. This past year, my plan was put to the test. I took seven months off from preaching and leading the church in order to write The Purpose Driven Life and design the 40 Days of Purpose campaign. But during those seven months, the church actually grew! I think it is because we built the church on a system – a purpose driven process, not my personality. You’ve taught me that charisma is worthless, and can be dangerous. My successor will be the system we’ve built. I think I could drop dead right now and the church wouldn’t miss me at all.

Peter: Well, here is what I’ve seen as your strengths: First, you have revitalized the sermon. You are a very strong preacher. This is different from most conventional churches where the sermon has become just a formality. It doesn't really stir people hearts and minds, but yours does. Second, you have made sure that a very large proportion of your members are not just attendants but volunteers in serving. This is a great strength. What percentages of your members are serving?

Rick: Almost 50 percent.

Peter: That high?

Rick: Yes, we have about 9,000 lay ministers with about 18,000 attending on the weekends.

Peter: Also, you have a very strong organized bible study group system. Right?

Rick: Yes. We have an extensive small group system. I never wanted the church to be built solely on my preaching gifts, like a giant one-room schoolhouse or a tent revival. So about 10 years ago, I intentionally started sharing the preaching. I recruited a strong teaching team to share the load (we have six services) so that now I only speak about half the time. Each of these guys is very different in personality from me.

Peter: When you are selecting a candidate for the ministry, what are you looking for?

Rick: Are you referring to our lay ministers or staff ministers?

Peter: Both.

Rick: Well, one of our values is what I call “the good enough” principle. A person doesn’t have to be perfect for God to use them. Because we want our church to be a model for other churches, we want average people doing average activities in order to get extraordinary results. Just like how the typical McDonalds is able to succeed while being staffed by high school students. Because the system works, it doesn’t require unusual talent.

Rick: The truth is, there aren't enough superstar talents in the world to get the job done. Some churches hold up such a standard of excellence that they basically say to volunteers “If you’re not a professional, you don’t need to apply, because we only want the very best.” That creates a congregation of passive spectators. On the other hand, our growth has happened because we hold to the “good enough” principle,” which allows far more people to get involved. We simplify everything and accept less than perfect performance in order to mobilize more people.

Peter: That’s good. But even with that, now your church has become too big for you to pastor by yourself.

Rick: Of course. We depend on the lay ministers to pastor the people. In fact, this past year we actually shrunk our paid staff by 50 people because I noticed that every time we added a staff member, it took away about five jobs that could be done by volunteers. We were headed in the wrong direction (having everything done by professionals), so I stopped that immediately! I want broad-based involvement by the members, not the pastors doing it all. Ironically, in the same year that we reduced our staff by 50 people, our attendance increased!

Peter: What you describe implies having somebody like you in the organization that is the disturbing element. I’m serious. Someone who is always shaking things up. That must be somebody who is free enough from the day to day managing to do this. Usually nobody is ever free enough from day to day duties to have the energy and commitment to be a disturber inside a large organization. I don’t remember how many thousands of members you have now but you have shown that a large congregation can work. But it only works because your church is composed, to a very large extent, of many smaller congregations if you will. These groups come together to renew their commitment on Sundays.

Rick: I don’t want the church to be one big fat cell. I want thousands of cells.

Peter: That works - on one condition. That there is a Rick Warren. Somebody like a Rick Warren who is the energy and the conscience and the example of the movement.

Rick: You know, Peter, I don’t think many people are attracted to a church because of its large size. I’m not. I don’t particularly like those stadium churches. I think people put up with the large size because their personal needs are met by programs, groups, and preaching. Actually the bigger a church becomes the more potential for inconvenience (such as having to park a long distance from the service). The only people who like big church services are pastors! (laughter)

 


So What About You?

  • Where is the leading edge of change in your life?
  • When one reaches a zone of transition in life, I believe there are three basic choices: Go Back, Go Away, and Go Forward. Which suits you best?


What is God Doing Now?

ANAHEIM, CA (ANS) -- On April 17, 2005 more than 35,000 members of the Saddleback Family gathered in Angel Stadium to celebrate the congregation's 25th anniversary. But they did more than just rejoice in the way God fulfilled the original vision he gave their pastor for the congregation in 1980. Pastor Rick Warren also shared a new vision God had placed on his heart: A vision of A GLOBAL EXPANSION OF THE KINGDOM, A TOTAL MOBILIZATION OF THE CHURCH, and A RADICAL DEVOTION OF EVERY BELIEVER to the purposes of God. The P.E.A.C.E. plan is intended to mobilize tens of millions of small groups in millions of churches around the world to tackle the five “Global Giants” – the biggest problems on our planet...

At the end of the celebration, the entire stadium stood holding signs that said “WHATEVER IT TAKES!” and read the following declaration.

THE PURPOSE DRIVEN COVENANT

THE ANGEL STADIUM DECLARATION

Composed by Rick Warren

Today I am stepping across the line. I'm tired of waffling, and I'm finished with wavering. I've made my choice; the verdict is in; and my decision is irrevocable. I'm going God's way. There's no turning back now!

I will live the rest of my life serving God's purposes with God's people on God's planet for God's glory. I will use my life to celebrate his presence, cultivate his character, participate in his family, demonstrate his love, and communicate his Word.

Since my past has been forgiven, and I have a purpose for living and a home awaiting in heaven, I refuse to waste any more time or energy on shallow living, petty thinking, trivial talking, thoughtless doing, useless regretting, hurtful resenting, or faithless worrying. Instead I will magnify God, grow to maturity, serve in ministry, and fulfill my mission in the membership of his family.

Because this life is preparation for the next, I will value worship over wealth, "we" over "me," character over comfort, service over status, and people over possessions, position, and pleasures. I know what matters most, and I'll give it all I've got. I'll do the best I can with what I have for Jesus Christ today.

I won't be captivated by culture, manipulated by critics, motivated by praise, frustrated by problems, debilitated by temptation, or intimidated by the devil. I'll keep running my race with my eyes on the goal, not the sidelines or those running by me. When times get tough, and I get tired, I won't back up, back off, back down, back out, or backslide. I'll just keep moving forward by God's grace. I'm Spirit-led, purpose-driven and mission-focused, so I cannot be bought, I will not be compromised, and I shall not quit until I finish the race.

I'm a trophy of God's amazing grace, so I will be gracious to everyone, grateful for everyday, and generous with everything that God entrusts to me.

To my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I say: However, whenever, wherever, and whatever you ask me to do, my answer in advance is yes! Wherever you lead and whatever the cost, I'm ready. Anytime. Anywhere. Anyway. Whatever it takes Lord; whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I'll hear you say, "Well done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!"

 


Wise Thoughts and Good Advice

Four Fragments:

“Purity does not lie in a separation from the universe, but in a deeper penetration of it.”

-- Teilhard de Chardin

 

“The Level 5 Executive builds enduring greatness through a paradoxical blend of personal humility and professional will. …

“Level 5 leaders are a study in duality: modest and willful, humble and fearless …

“Level 5 leaders channel their ego needs away from themselves and into the larger goal of building a great company. It’s not that Level 5 leaders have no ego or self-interest. Indeed, they are incredibly ambitious—but their ambition is first and foremost for the institution, not themselves.”

-- Jim Collins, Good to Great

 

“In light of all this, here’s what I want you to do. While I’m locked up here, a prisoner for the Master, I want you to get out there and walk—better yet, run!—on the road God called you to travel. I don’t want any of you sitting around on your hands. I don’t want anyone strolling off, down some path that goes nowhere. And mark that you do this with humility and discipline—not in fits and starts, but steadily, pouring yourselves out for each other in acts of love.”

-- St. Paul, Ephesians 4:1-3 (The Message Version)

 

"The entrepreneur," said the French economist J.B. Say around 1800, "shifts economic resources out of an area of lower and into an area of higher productivity and greater yield ...

"Entrepreneurship is by no means confined solely to economic institutions."

-- Peter Drucker, Innovations and Entrepreneurship

 


Recommended Resources

Purpose-Driven Covenant This covenant may be reprinted for non-profit use as long as the following tagline appears: "This article is printed from the Web site www.Pastors.com. Copyright 2005 by Rick Warren. Used by permission. All rights reserved."

www.pastors.com – A comprehensive website for articles, books, and sermons by Rick Warren.
 

Leader to Leader – A quarterly publication by Leader to Leader Institute (continuing the work of The Drucker Foundation), whose mission is to strengthen the leadership of the social sector.

Find out about subscribing to Leader to Leader, visit: www.leadertoleader.org

 

 

For more information about my organization, Leadership Network, our Leadership Communities, Learning Events and Learning Resources, visit: www.leadnet.org


 

 

 

Purchase Finishing Well – where I interview some of the smartest people on the planet and detail how they’ve gone beyond success to significance. By their words, you can learn how you too can accomplish work that has eternal purpose and meaning until the day you die.


 



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